[Posted in 2013, this email exchange is between M, a Messianic missionary, and a collaborative work of several Sinaites. Actually, the original email that started this from M was not intended to be challenged; it was sent to his Messianic flock, ala Paul’s letters, to the churches M planted. We just turned it into a discourse because since we were at the end of his tirades and we felt we needed to defend our new-found faith in the God of the Hebrew Scriptures. We were not copy-furnished the “epistle” and can’t even remember how we got a copy of it.
Discourses are educational and mind-expanding; they give you a running discussion on a common topic from two opposing views. Like passive spectators watching a sports match, you learn while rooting for your player or team. You learn to weigh the evidence you hear, and make a decision in the end or remain neutral. Regardless, that exposure to differing views is always a good thing! Who wins in the end? Hopefully, Truth, and the God of Truth and if you chose THAT side, then you win as well!
Translations: EF/Everett Fox, The Five Books of Moses; AST/ArtScroll Tanach., JPS/Jewish Publication Society.—Admin1.]
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Messianic:
Genesis 18:13-14
13 But YHVH said to Avraham: Now why does Sara laugh and say: Shall I really give birth, now that I am old? 14 Is anything beyond YHVH? At that set-time I will return to you, when time revives, and Sara will have a son.Three “men” came to visit Abraham:
- One is the LORD Yeshua,
- the other two are angels, who later on go down to Sodom to rescue Lot and family.
Yeshua in human form, a Theophany, is visiting with Abraham in his tent about their child next year, and about the soon destruction of Sodom. I am always amazed and encouraged by the LORD Yeshua’s words and actions! Truly, nothing is impossible for Him!
S6K Comment:
Where in the TEXT does it indicate that one of these “men” is “the LORD Yeshua?” Jesus of Nazareth has not been introduced anywhere in Genesis! Plain and simple reading rules require that one does not read another character who has not been introduced into the narrative. This is the problem with Christian infusion of its theology into the Genesis narrative. It is against reading rules to do this. Writers do not violate this rule, and neither should any reader.
Messianic:
Sarah will have her baby, with Abraham, next year when they are 90 & 100 years old!! Their conversation probably [?] covered many topics, including “Yeshua’s Day” in John 8:56-58.
S6K:
How could Abraham fast-forward his thinking to the time of Yeshua? Who can read Abraham’s mind at the time this was happening except the ALL-Knowing God of Abraham? Genesis does not indicate this even if the writer of John’s gospel recounts it centuries later as Christian ‘gospel truth’.
Messianic:
“Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw it, and rejoiced. Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!”
Yeshua is Deity!
S6K:
Just because someone makes claims like Yeshua supposedly does in this text does not make him “Deity” . . . YHWH is clear WHO is DEITY: HE and no one else! Anyone can say what Jesus said here, it still doesn’t make anyone, in this case Jesus, GOD Himself.
Messianic:
In Genesis 19, the other two are identified as angels in human form, while we see an amazing identification of “the LORD” on earth separate from “the LORD” in heaven.
Genesis 19:24
“Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.”
S6K:
Here are 2 renderings of the same verse:
Artscroll: “Now HaShem caused sulfur and fire to rain upon Sodom and Gomorrah, from HaShem out of heaven.”
EF: But YHVH rained down brimstone and fire upon Sedom and Amora, coming from YHVH, from the heavens,
A reader who believes in a Trinitarian deity will see “2”; another reader who is monotheistic and believes YHWH is One as He has repeatedly declared all over the Hebrew Scriptures will see “1”.
The rendering, we believe, is simply a Hebraism, a typical Hebrew way of expression using repetition, sometime saying the same thing in 2 ways. It is NOT evidence of a TRINITY, nor of FATHER-GOD and SON-GOD. The same word is used in the KJV [LORD] as in Artscroll [HaSHEM], meaning the same person, not 2 different persons.
Who is LORD? The Father or the Son? Are they both LORD? And that is the problem with substituting LORD or even HaShem for the Tetragrammaton Name wherever it occurs.
Messianic:
The LORD on earth was the One who visited with Abraham, the God of the impossible, identified in John 1:1-3 as the Word, the spokesman for God, being God Himself, and also as the prominent One in Creation!
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
S6K:
When the proof presented is found in NT, which superimposes its trinitarian theology on TNK where YHWH HIMSELF keep’s declaring HE is One and there is NO OTHER . . . NT is contradicting YHWH’s claim about His Nature, His Name, His being ONE.
Messianic:
When we read Genesis 1:3, “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light,” this again is Yeshua speaking! The text simply says In the beginning GOD . . . and this GOD starts creating by simply speaking . . .
S6K:
With all due respect, how can Yeshua be injected here except by a theology that keeps insisting Yeshua pre-existed as God? ‘Sequel NT’ claims have to be supported by ‘Prequel TNK’ claims but in the TNK, nowhere is Yeshua present nor even hinted at as God except in the chosen prooftexts reinterpreted as evidence; Christian orientation sees Yeshua so clearly all over TNK; Jews and Sinaites do not.
Messianic:
I conclude by this and many other passages that Yeshua is the One active and speaking with mankind on earth, while the Father and the Spirit are active but mostly silent in the background.
S6K:
When one gets to know the GOD of Abraham, Moses, and Israel as clearly delineated in TNK, the NT claims appear forced and in fact contrived by men who changed the very nature of GOD in their writings and turned Him into something never claimed nor forecasted in TNK, except in their reinterpretation and rewriting of the TNK.
Messianic:
Does this bother the Father? NO! He is pleased!
S6K:
Where in TNK does it say this? It is in the NT, but not in OT. In fact the TNK keeps repeating how YHWH is a jealous God, who demands worship to HIM alone and to no one else, certainly not a man.
Messianic:
This is their Plan! There is no conflict among Father, Son, and Spirit!
S6K:
Again, an NT claim, nowhere in TNK or TORAH.
Messianic:
They have perfect harmony. Philippians 2:9-11.
“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus/Yeshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.”
S6K:
There is aTNK verse that says exactly this, referring to YHWH . . . it is where this whole verse has been lifted:
JPS/Isaiah 45:21-23
Messianic:
In Manila we recently had a Seminar on “Biblical Creationism.” Again, Yeshua is the prime Creator, together with the Father and the Spirit, Who hovers over the mass of material just created, before God begins His 6 days of Creation.
God could have done it all in one day, but He chose to create all in an ordered sequence of 6 days of 24 hours per day. Impossible?? Not for our God! And I do not accept any idea of any “Pre-Adamic World” as explored by Daniel Botkin in this issue of Petah Tikvah, nor any “Gap Theory” between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The Creation, the Universe, is only about 6,000 years old, from “In The Beginning…” Any departure from this plain statement is a slippery slope away from trusting God completely.
S6K:
This is hindsight post-website infusion, please check out Gerald L. Schroeder
- MUST READ: God According to God [A Physicist Proves We’ve Been Wrong About God All Along]
- “The Science of God” – MUST READ
- Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery of Harmony Between Modern Science and the Bible
- The Hidden Face of God: How Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth
Messianic:
Now, what about the Task that God has given to you and me? Do you get discouraged? Does it seem “impossible”? Do you feel inadequate for the responsibilities before you? Do you think that you lack resources to do the job? Of course – all of the above!!
S6K:
Why should we get discouraged? God doesn’t give man impossible commandments that are beyond man’s ability to fulfill. Just like a human father knows what his child at any age is capable of doing.
Deuteronomy 30 says —-
11 For the commandment that I command you this day: it is not too extraordinary for you, itis not too far away!
12 It is not in the heavens, (for you) to say: Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it
for us and have us hear it, that we may observe it? Deuteronomy 30:13 And it is not across the sea, (for you) to say: Who will cross for us, across the sea, and
get it for us and have us hear it, that we may observe it?
14 Rather, near to you is the word, exceedingly, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe
it!
15 See, I set before you today life and good, and death and ill:
16 in that I command you today to love YHVH your God, to walk in his ways and to keep
his commandments, his laws and his regulations, that you may stay-alive and become-many and
YHVH your God may bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.
Messianic:
God has given each of us tasks and responsibilities way beyond ourselves, because He wants us to learn to Trust Him for everything.
S6K:
2 Chronicles 16
“9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is whole toward Him. Herein thou hast done foolishly; for from henceforth thou shalt have wars.’ (JPS)
Yes, we Sinaites trust YHWH for everything, but He has enabled us (as opposed to being helpless because of inherited sin and being born condemned) to make the right choice and to obey his commandments, not ignore them because Paul in NT teaches “we are under grace not law.” We have always been under grace, and the “law” is part of God’s grace to all humanity.
Messianic:
We have just passed through Yom Kippur. What did it mean to you? Did the observance enable you to renew your Commitment to Him to qualify for His “strong support” for the future? Was Sukkot a joyful New Beginning? After all, Yeshua did not make “atonement” (covering) for our sins for another year. Instead, Yeshua made Propitiation = Full Payment for our sins forever which should give us great Peace and Joy, and Confidence to—
“forget those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:13-14.
S6K:
Again, another NT claim. Propitiation “full payment”? Dictionary definition says “appeasing a god” which is hardly “full payment.” Is this another redefinition of a dictionary word to suit NT theology?
Messianic:
Now that we have been strengthened through the Fall Moedim, we should be able to discern the tactics and activities of the enemy, who goes around like a roaring lion to destroy all the Believers that he possibly can. How I pray for the gift of discernment for all of you!
S6K:
We too pray for discernment for all our Christian/Messianic friends, but discernment comes with lots of study and exposure to a variety of sources, not simply listening to one side while eschewing others.
Messianic:
Lately some of our brethren have fallen victim to Satan’s deceptions and now claim that Jesus/Yeshua was only a mistaken human being, fathered by some man, maybe a Roman soldier, who thought that God would honor his messianic claims, but ended up being crucified, a sad mistake in their opinion.
S6K:
Why does man keep blaming “satan” for deception, aren’t men capable of it without help? Each should do some research on the roots of their beliefs; simply read an objective history of the religion of Christianity from its beginnings; don’t be afraid as well, to check out scholarship and many investigations on the Jesus of history. Weigh all ‘evidence’ against each other, and most importantly, use reason and logic.
Messianic:
They claim that the Apostolic Scriptures were written by ignorant fishermen and other unknown fiction writers. They forget that the “ignorant fishermen” had the Torah memorized from early age, the common Jewish educational system of that time, but did not have a “certificate” from a recognized Yeshiva!
S6K:
Memorizing Torah is different from learning how to read and write. The textual/literary/linguistic evidence shows that Peter could not have written in the Greek of I & 2 Peter. The research on the authorship of NT books is extensive. Read as many books and then make a conclusion.
Messianic:
This apostasy began in Singapore and continued in Baguio, and then in Manila. Apostasy is defined as ” the abandonment or renunciation of a political or religious belief.”
S6K:
Finally we have one point of agreement; admittedly, we are ‘apostates’ because we have abandoned belief in Jesus as God, and worship only the One True God of the Hebrew Scriptures.
M:
Which brings me to the very important subject of Leadership! All of these apostates were in leadership positions!
S6K:
Give these leaders more credit . . . if we never questioned the beliefs we’ve been taught and swallowed without questioning for all of our lives, now that we’ve done our own research and study . . . it takes courage to move on from a major religion and popular belief. Why would anyone do that, unless he is fully convicted that what he has believed all along has been wrong?
Messianic:
How could these possibly deny Yeshua after claiming to have known Him (did they really??) for many years and taught His Word?
S6K:
We all knew Yeshua only as taught and brainwashed that he is everything Christianity decided he should be, decisions by mere councils of men 3 centuries A.D., or CE. In hindsight, we REALLY did not know Jesus/Yeshua . . . .
Messianic:
The result of their defection from Yeshua and the Newer Testament has also affected some of the “sheep” under their care.
Jeremiah 23:1,13. “1Woe unto the shepherds that destroy and scatter The sheep of My pasture! saith the LORD.
S6K:
The “sheep” under our care were free to decide for themselves if they too, after doing their own research and study, agree or disagree with us. In fact you were given the opportunity to present the other side to some of them at a class. Nobody was brainwashed nor coerced into believing or following any of us, we should give the sheep more credit for making their stand on their own.
Messianic:
Rarely was the leadership of Israel godly, leading the people in the Bible way, but then, many of the Prophets and other leaders had to contend with a stubborn people. Look at one of Jeremiah’s attempts to lead the people in God’s way:
Jeremiah 44:15-18.
15Then all the men who knew that their wives offered unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great assembly, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying: 16‘As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17But we will certainly perform every word that is gone forth out of our mouth, to offer unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink-offerings unto her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then had we plenty of food, and were well, and saw no evil. 18But since we let off to offer to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink-offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.Messianic:
What is the apparent motive for this worship? It seems to be, “What can this god do for me? If this Queen of Heaven god can supply my needs and give me a peaceful life, then why not worship her?” Is the “here and now” all that counts? Not to us, don’t know what you’re leading to here.
S6K:
How is “Queen of Heaven” and utilitarian religion applicable to us? Are you accusing us of false motives for our worship of the God of Israel’s TNK? How many Christians and Messianics think of worshipping the true God in this way? Why did Yirmeyahu/Jeremiah put up with all the suffering he had to endure in his service to the God of Israel? He did what he was told because Jeremiah knew Israel’s God, YHWH, and loved Him; he was in a covenant relationship as an Israelite and was one of YHWH’s mouthpieces to His chosen people. Yirmeyahu worshipped the same God we now worship, YHWH; certainly not Jesus who didn’t even exist then except on the insistence of Christian theology.
Messianic:
Did you fast for Yom Kippur? Why? Did you enjoy fasting? I fasted but I never enjoy it, except it is what is pleasing to my Father.
S6K:
You’ve been talking all this time about the Son, so now you’re fasting to please the Father? You would please Him more if you worshipped Him and give Him His due instead of the so-called Son.
Messianic:
Now back to the question, “Did these apostates really have a Covenant relationship with God, were they Family members?” Only God knows that, but we need to think it through, based on Scripture.
Let John 1:19-23 help us:
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One (truly born-from-Above!), and you all have knowledge… Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.”
S6K:
The word “christ” is equivalent to the Hebrew “maschiach” or “messiah.” We no longer agree that Jesus was the “messiah” referred to in TNK; so in that sense, yes we are indeed “anti-christs”, but we still believe in the coming of YHWH’s prophesied “messiah.” We were with you, believing and worshipping the Christian version of God, and now we went out from among you, fortunately for us, and we are not of you anymore in terms of belief and worship! We don’t need to be ‘born from above”, we merely do what YHWH has commanded His people —to love Him, love our fellowmen, live the Torah.
Messianic:
I am thinking now that many have been “Born Again” emotionally, psychologically, politically and made changes in their life, but have never been “Born-From-Above” by the Spirit of God, never having been indwelt and sealed by His Spirit, not a genuine “conversion.” I do not mean any charismatic expression, which is a weak or false foundation! I do not think that anyone truly “saved, born-from-Above” can ever deny Yeshua and depart from Him, especially over such flimsy, deceitful reasons. Yes, the “elect” can be deceived if not walking closely with Yeshua, but if “elect,” then discipline from God happens. If not “elect,” and no discipline is evident, then we have to conclude that they must be bastards, counterfeits, “tares” and not wheat.
What does Yeshua say in Hebrews 12:5-8:
“And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.”
Lets take a look at Matthew 13:36-43.
“Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us(insiders!) the parable of the tares (‘darnel” inferior wheat, not weeds!) of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world (kosmos); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and (first!) they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Do tares, counterfeit wheat, know that they are tares and not good seed? I doubt it. I think they have deceived themselves into a false assurance based on a faulty understanding of Scripture and the basis of Salvation, maybe still from their church days. Yom Kippur and Hebrews 9-10 make it very clear that “without the shedding of blood there is no payment for sin.” There has been no blood in Judaism ever since AD 70, when the Pharisees revamped Judaism to exist without the Temple, priesthood, and blood sacrifices. That means there is no salvation in Judaism! It also means that there is no salvation in keeping the Noahide laws, a more modern invention to keep Gentiles out of Judaism. We know clearly that there is no salvation in keeping Torah, for Torah is for Believers, those who have a Covenant relationship with God. Remember too that “Abrahamic Faith” includes a knowledge of and surrender to YHVH Yeshua, Son of God and only Savior for mankind. Brethren, we need to be sure our Testimonies and Messages are always clear and to the point, especially in evangelism. Most of you have taken HaYesod or Roots. The basic Foundation is there.
Without Yeshua The Messiah you are not Messianic! Without Jesus Christ you are not even a Christian! Without the Newer Testament/Apostolic Scriptures you do not have the Complete Revelation that God gave, which fills in many details and is the only Inspired expansion of Truth on the basics in the Tanakh/Hebrew Scriptures. We find no conflict between OT & NT, but find that they fit together perfectly. Why? Because God wrote both!
S6K:
Thank you, bring it on! Points of agreement:
- Without Yeshua the Messiah, we are NOT Messianic.
- Without Jesus Christ, we are not even Christian.
As for the claim that the “Newer/Apostolic Scriptures” complete the incomplete revelation that God gave, and that there is no conflict between “older” and “newer” — we do not agree—no, the “old” and the “new” of the Christian Bible might have been programmed to agree so that they indeed “fit together perfectly”, but when you get exposed to the Hebrew rendering of the Sinai Revelation, Divine Truth has its distinct and self-confirming message that reverberates through the ages to our day.
Let us give as we always should give the last word to the Revelator Himself . . . and guess what, that “last word” is not found in the Christian New Testament last book “the revelation of Jesus Christ” but in the last book of the original and true Sinai revelation as faithfully recorded by Moses and whoever picked up his pen when he was given his well-deserved rest.
JPS/Deuteronomy 4
ACCORDING TO THE MASORETIC TEXT
A NEW TRANSLATIONJewish Publication Society
1917
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