Discourse – Sinaite to Christian Pastor -12

[The next couple of discourses are installments of Sinaite VAN’s answer to the many points raised in Discourse #11 by “CP”.  Are readers learning anything from this exchange?  You should!  Here are two equals, church leaders, evangelists, both biblically educated (in the New Testament) though the Sinaite went farther in his “Old Testament” reorientation by studying the original Hebrew Scriptures minus Christian retranslation and reinterpretation. —Admin1]

 

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Dear “CP” —

 

Greetings in the Name of the One True God, YHWH, God of Israel, Revelator on Sinai, the Name I and my core community Sinai 6000, declare as the God we embrace and worship.

 

I was in a quandary as to how to respond to your last reply [Discourse: Christian Elder to Sinaite – 10], mainly because it was quite lengthy and tackled a lot of topics. 

 

In our past exchanges we had presented our individual views on each and all those varied subjects and understandably, you had opted to take it all up in one long email.  I do appreciate the time and effort it took for you to write almost a treatise, an apologetics of sorts that took over 6 pages on legal size paper.  Forgive me for the delay in responding; it is taking me a while to read and reflect on each of your counter-arguments.  

 

I will not attempt to take up all the points you raised in one long reply; instead I will take up one topic at a time.  I hope this is alright with you.  If we were discussing this face to face, I am sure it will take us hours, perhaps days, if not many meetings and still, most likely, still not see eye to eye, and that is alright for friends who continue to respect one another’s differing faith choice and yet remain open to understanding ‘why’ and ‘how’ we have arrived at our individual convictions..

 

At the outset, may I be frank about the glaring problem in our letter-exchange.  We are presenting the justification for our arguments based on  two different sources:
  •  I defend my stand based  solely on the Hebrew translation of the TNK,
  • while you defend your stand from the Christian Bible (Christian translation of the Old Testament and the New Testament).

If we were basing our arguments on the basis of the same Scriptures, then it would simply be a matter of discussing the context (historical, cultural, literary).  Still, this whole effort at explaining our views to one another is not wasted, since our discourse is open to others in the website.  Discourse is a good teaching tool; open-minded readers learn from each side.

For starters, I will return to the one topic that has been the problem for me that led me to my quest for more truth based on the Hebrew Scriptures:  the claim that ‘Jesus is the Paschal Lamb’.  With the Christian feast of Easter coming up once more, timed almost with the Jewish/biblical celebration of the feast of Passover, this second of seven feasts commanded in Leviticus 23 is actually easy to check out (the first being the weekly Sabbath).  

 

The historical context of the original event is clear to both of us— we agree on the details of the requirements given for each household to be spared of the 10th plague, losing the firstborn; what we disagree on is the interpretation and symbolism extended beyond the original context, specifically that which is forced upon it by Christian teaching.  

 

My point from the very start has been:  this lamb is not an offering, not a sacrifice, but intended to challenge the gods of Egypt, 9 of which have already been reflected in the previous 9 plagues.  If you carefully read the Exodus narrative and the Leviticus text on ‘MY feasts’ or the feasts of YHWH, you will see the difference between the Passover and other feasts where offerings are commanded.
There appears to be confusion between the feast of Passover which is commanded on the 14th of Nisan, and the feast of Unleavened Bread which takes 7 days starting on the 15th of Nisan.  Even the later requirement when Israel’s male population are required to be at Jerusalem three times a year, it is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and not the Passover that is mentioned. This is crucial, since the Passover is a home-based celebration, not one where a lamb is to be offered in the Temple, not even as a synagogue gathering.  The Jewish Seder is family-centered, where the Haggadah allows children to ask the ‘why’ questions so that the next generation is educated on the purpose for celebrating the Passover.  Lamb is eaten as part of the meal or a lamb shank is symbolically present at the Seder meal. 

 

The confusion is most likely caused by translations, particularly Christian translations where a “holy convocation” (Christian translation) is substituted for “proclamation of holiness” (Hebrew translation).  “Holiness” is simply the state of being “set apart” whether it be a room, a day, an object, or time such as the Sabbath.  Set apart for what purpose?  In general, set apart in connection with God—Torah study, fellowship, prayer, etc. The same room, object, or time — when used for mundane or secular purposes is no longer considered “holy” or set apart.  The connection with God is what sets anything apart, i.e., “sacred” or “holy”.  

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Next:  Discourse – Sinaite to Christian Pastor -12

 

 

Postscript:
Here is a link that might help in understanding the Passover feast and the passover lamb:  http://noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/index.php/judaism-articles/judaism-v-christianity/2012/04/the-paschal-lamb-is-not-an-atonement/

Hereunder is the text:

 

The Paschal Lamb is not an atonement, it is an act of defiance!  

 

Exodus 8:22 (so much for Jesus as “the paschal lamb”).

 

“’What we will sacrifice to HaShem our L-rd is sacred to the Egyptians. Could we sacrifice the sacred animal of the Egyptians before their very eyes and not have them stone us?”

 

Moses clearly tells Pharaoh (and us) that the animal to be sacrificed by the Jews is sacred (e.g.,  a G-d) to the Egyptians. The paschal lamb (or sheep) has nothing whatsoever to do with atoning for sins.

 

We know that the Egyptian Kevatim would worship the Zodiac sign of the sheep (Aries). To this end, they banned the slaughter of sheep and despised sheep traders and shepherds (Ex.8:22,Bereshit 46:34 ) ….

 

It was for this very reason that we were commanded to slaughter the Paschal lamb, daubing its blood – in Egypt – on the doorways, in full view. This was to cleanse ourselves of those (idolatrous) views and to publicise the very opposite; in order to internalize the notion that the very act that they (Egypt) expect to bring our destruction ( ie. the slaughter of the gods) will save us from destruction;

 

‘And HaShem will pass over the door and not let the destroyer enter and smite your home.(12:23)” [Moreh Nevuchim 3:46]

 

Rambam (circa 12th century in the “Guide to the Perplexed) said:  

 

Scripture tells us, according to the Version of Onkelos, that the Egyptians worshipped Aries, and therefore abstained from killing sheep, and held shepherds in contempt. Comp.

 

”Behold we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians,” etc. (Exod. viii. 26):”

 

For every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians (Gen. Avi. 34).

 

Some sects among the Sabeans worshipped demons, and imagined that these assumed the form of goats, and called them therefore” goats” This worship was widespread.  

 

Comp.  

 

”And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto demons, after whom they have gone a whoring” (Lev. xvii. 7).

 

 For this reason those sects abstained from eating goats’ flesh. Most idolaters objected to killing cattle, holding this species of animals in great estimation. Therefore the people of Hodu [Indians] up to this day do not slaughter cattle even in those countries where other animals are slaughtered. In order to eradicate these false principles, the Law commands us to offer sacrifices only of these three kinds :

 

” Ye shall bring your offering of the cattle [viz.], of the herd and of the flock” (Lev. i. 2).

 

Thus the very act which is considered by the heathen as the greatest crime, is the means of approaching G-d, and obtaining His pardon for our sins. In this manner, evil principles, the diseases of the human soul, are cured by other principles which are diametrically opposite.

 

This is also the reason why we were commanded to kill a lamb on Passover, and to sprinkle the blood thereof outside on the gates. We had to free ourselves of evil doctrines and to proclaim the opposite, viz., that the very act which was then considered as being the cause of death would be the cause of deliverance from death.

 Comp.

 

”And HaShem will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come unto your houses to suite you (Exod. idi. 23).

 Thus they were rewarded for performing openly a service every part of which was objected to by the idolaters.

 The Egyptians worshipped sheep / lambs and ergo the sacrifice of the lamb was an “in your face” to them (while showing a believe in HaShem that the Egyptians wouldn’t kill them for slaughtering the Egyptian “G-d.).

 An interesting bit of trivia about Passover:

 The astrological symbol of the month of Nisan (the month of Passover) is Aries, the ram (male sheep).

 Additional thoughts are found in Midrash Rabba, too.

 “You will find that when Israel were in Egypt, they served idols, which they were reluctant to abandon, for it says:

 

“They did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes” (Ezekiel 20:8).

 G-d then said to Moses:

 ‘As long as Israel worship Egyptian G-ds, they will not be redeemed; go and tell them to abandon their evil ways and to reject idolatry.’

 

This is what is meant by:

 

“Draw out and take your lambs” (12:21),

 

that is to say:   “Draw away your hands from idolatry and take for yourselves lambs, thereby slaying the gof Egypt and preparing the Passover.  Only through this will the L-rd pass over you.”

 

 Gee what a coincidence. And the very day for Passover, 15th of Nissan, is the apex of a lunar month. The ram-G-d of the Egyptians was to be slaughtered on the evening of the full-moon of its very own month.  How is that for HaShem having a great sense of humor?

 Rambam goes on to say that by slaughtering an Egyptian G-d (the lamb / sheep) the Israelites accomplished 3 things:

 1. They showed faith in HaShem – that HaShem was more powerful than the Egyptian G-ds and the Egyptians themselves (who would normally kill anyone who hurt their “G-ds.”).

 2. The Israelites proved themselves not to be idolaters.

  3. They (and HaShem) showed the Egyptians that their G-ds were false and powerless in the face of HaShem. The Talmud tells us that Torah decrees we select our sheep or ram  (cf. Shemot 12:5 which treats them identically) four days in before the sacrifice to re-enforce to the Egyptians just how powerless they were in the presence of HaShem.  It was most definitely “in your face.” As was smearing the blood of the sacrificed animals on the doorposts.  This was an outright affront no Egyptian could miss.

 Why would G-d command that we smear it on the OUTSIDE of the houses if the purpose were just for G-d to “see” it? (Shemot 12:13; ve-ra’iti et ha-dam). 

 Nope, Rebecca,  it HAD to be outside so the Egyptians would see it!  It gets even better.  

 Ibn Ezra tells us G-d commanded we roast the animal rather than cooking it in a pot or eating it raw, so the Egyptians would SMELL their G-d being cooked.   You see, in a pot you can cover it with a lid – but by roasting the smell would be unmistakable.

 IN YOUR FACE, not meek and mild. Most definitely. Not meek. Not an atonement – a DARE. A defiant act. And an act of infinite trust in G-d’s saving power.

 

Also see Genesis 46:34

 

34. You shall say, ‘Your servants have been owners of livestock from our youth until now, both we and our ancestors,’ so that you may dwell in the land of Goshen, because all shepherds are abhorrent to the Egyptians.”

 (Rashi: shepherds are abhorrent to the Egyptians Because they (the sheep) are their gods).

 ” We know that the Egyptian Kevatim would worship the Zodiac sign of the sheep (Aries). To this end, they banned the slaughter of sheep and despised sheep traders and shepherds (Ex.8:22,Bereshit 46:34 ) ….

 

It was for this very reason that we were commanded to slaughter the Paschal lamb, daubing its blood – in Mitzrayin (Egypt)- on the doorways, in full view. This was to cleanse ourselves of those (idolatrous) views and to publicize the very opposite; in order to internalize the notion that the very act that they (Egypt) expect to bring our destruction ( ie. the slaughter of the G-ds) will save us from destruction;

 

‘And the L-rd will pass over the door and not let the destroyer enter and smite your home.(12:23)” [Moreh Nevuchim 3:46] 
 
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 Tagged as: Jesus is NOT the Paschal Lamb!

{ 3 comments]

 

Terry Hayes April 4, 2012 at 1:26 pm

 

I would like to add another thought as well.

 

So many christians want to use the Passover to show power of the blood. But the power of salvation in the Pesach story was not in the blood of the lamb but in the obedience of the Israelite – The blood on the door was a sign that those inside obeyed the commandment of G-d – those who did not obey suffered the consequences of disobedience

 
 Sophiee Saguy June 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm
 
A beautiful synopsis — and the entire point!
 

MaApril 14, 2014 at 4:01 amPlease re-check your references,The sheep/ram was FIRST used as a sacrifice by Abraham. 

 

 

And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said , My father: and he said , Here am I, my son. And he said , Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
 

 

And Abraham said , My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together 
 

Genesis 22:13 KJV

 

And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked , and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result
 

Genesis 15:9 KJV

 

And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old , and a she goat of three years old , and a ram of three years old , and a turtledove, and a young pigeon .
 
 

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