[This was first posted on August 5, 2013. Readers learn from permissible ‘eavesdropping’ on conversations or discourses that we share. It also saves us rewriting what has already been explained on email exchanges such as this. Reformatted for this updated version.–Admin1]
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This was a discourse on email between an Evangelical Christian (EC), another Independent-Messianic (IND), and a Sinaite (NSB@S6K). This was circa 2009 when Sinaites, as former Christ-believers, were just awakening to the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was not divine.
The third party labeled here as “independent” (IND) was a Messianic in transition. (EC) and (IND) have been friends since childhood and were both involved in a feeding program of street children in Manila called “Project Matthew.”
When I started declaring my stand that eventually led to the community name SINAI 6000 and core-community as “Sinaites,” these two bible students were among those I contacted, mainly because I had given them intermittent bible studies over decades, and recent specific exposure to the teachings of Messianic Judaism. Hence I felt it my duty to declare to all I had taught that I no longer believed that Jesus of Nazareth was divine, and that my allegiance had turned to belief and faith in and worship of the self-revealing God on Sinai who gave Israel not only His Name, YHWH, but also His guidelines for living in what is now known as the Torah.
There is enough in this email exchange to learn from, specially for the curious, for those still defending their Christ-centered beliefs, as well as those in transition. In fact, you will notice that Christians/Messianics pose exactly the same questions like a refrain in all the discourses between the two opposing beliefs, if you have read through the discourse series between Sinaites and Christ-centered believers elsewhere in this website.
These are merely excerpts from the original email exchanges. Reading private discourses on email is just like being given permission to snoop into other people’s mail and get a glimpse of how others think without necessarily taking sides.
NSB@S6K
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EC to NSB@S6K:
Thank you, for sharing . . . you can trust me. It gave me a lot to chew on. . . I’m still at the stage of questioning what is truth. But deep in my heart, I know there’s a ring of truth in all that you said. As you advised, I should not take everything hook, line and sinker. I will do my own searching and am praying that the God of the Bible will direct my quest. I’m reading the Psalms and this morning He gave me Psalm 32:8 – “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you and watch over you.” I am comforted.
You mentioned in one of your emails that Isaiah 9 referred to Hezekiah not Jesus. Isn’t there such a thing as progressive revelation? It could have referred to Hezekiah, then to Jesus? Why would Isaiah call Hezekiah “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” and that his kingdom will last forever?
How much of the NT is true? Who can tell? As I asked earlier, aren’t there extant manuscripts of the NT? I find the teachings of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John (or whoever wrote it) in line with the character of the God of the Bible: loving, forgiving, righteous, just, patient, merciful, etc. And lives have been transformed when they truly turn over their lives to Jesus. Weren’t the apostles martyred? If they were, how could they have died for something untrue? Not considering the transformation of the early disciples (if untrue), we have witnessed lives transformed in our day and age! I for one became more patient, forgiving, content, honest, etc. when I turned over my life to Jesus.
What about the Great Commission? Are we called by the God of the Bible to evangelize? I now find myself reluctant to visit ailing neighbors for I don’t know how to pray. . . .
I’m hesitant when I pray in public, trying not to end with “in Jesus’ name.” Under my breath I say “in Yaweh’s name.” What do I do with all the Christian books I have accumulated or bought to give away as gifts? What CD’s do I play to encourage me when most of my CD’s sing about Jesus! Sometimes I feel guilty feeling I’ve rejected Jesus without a trial.
I’m hanging on… Is there a group of like mind I can meet with in Manila?
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NSB@S6K to EC:
Shalom EC,
Don’t take this the wrong way: actually I wasn’t going to email you any more after you said you were going to start doing your own research which is the way to go, which is what I encourage all to do.
In fact, I had already decided to back off from not only you, but everybody else I have shared this with who ended up confused, unsettled, disturbed, some even reacting towards me negatively, and rightly so, I am not surprised nor do I feel offended. It is to be expected.
I still deeply regret I even opened my big mouth about this to anyone outside of my sons and those in my weekly bible study. I owe no one else any obligation to talk about this. I realize don’t accomplish anything by doing it.
Had IND not suggested sending you the series of emails with my son (and she knows you better than I do), you would not have heard one more peep out of me until you asked, because IND is right, I answer only those who ask.
Just this afternoon, when I visited the couple [BAN/VAN@S6K] who are about the only two people who have done the same research and perhaps even more than I’ve done [they’re master degree holders from Asian Theological Seminary] , we decided—-
- this is absolutely not something to spring on people except our own family;
- it is definitely not something we spread out to “evangelize” others;
- it is not something believers would welcome, much less embrace easily;
- in fact, from our experience, it has served only to distance us from others, and isolate us.
Only the three of us truly understand for now but that is only because all others have not done the homework, nor have the resources we have, even if they had wanted to. My bible groups simply trust me (well, not all of them), but that should not be enough for them or anyone else. That is why I share with them all the books I’ve read and the websites to check out. And I repeatedly tell them it’s OK to quit coming to my bible study if they feel they’re not on the same page with me anymore, because I cannot teach anything else other than what I have learned now. (I lost numbers in bible classes and Christian colleagues.)
Since you brought up some questions in your email, I will endeavor to provide alternative answers to the usual Christian explanation. I am actually tempted to leave these questions hanging—and encourage you discover for yourself, but I cannot resist providing what I know so that you can think about it even if you’re not yet believing it, and so that you will check it out for yourself as you should.
Basically, the root of the disagreement in ALL debates between Christians and rabbis is—besides TRUTH—the SOURCE of truth, including the translation of the Bible each side is using.
If your only access to the OT biblical text are the Christian versions/translations (KJV,NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc.), you will NEVER get to the correct reading of those supposed “messianic” prophecies/prooftexts provided by Christianity. You will ALWAYS read those verses exactly as the Christian translators have been ‘programmed’ to render them.
The “Old” Testament we all read is the Christianized “Old” Testament . . . it is so different from the Hebrew rendering. Even if you’re reading the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) Bible translations, they are still based on Septuagint/Greek translation of the Hebrew Text. Jews do not recognize the “Old Testament” as a version of their Hebrew Scriptures or the TNK. The Christian “Old Testament” is a strange version of the TNK and unacceptable to Jews, understandably!
The Messianic translation of David Stern (Complete Jewish Bible) is just as misleading. It is simply KJV or NIV where names, titles, certain words are in Hebrew to make the reader aware of Christianity’s Jewish roots, which is the ministry of Messianics. David Stern was a Christian turned Messianic, and he revised the usual Christian translation by simply changing Jesus to Yeshua, Holy Spirit to Ruach Hakodesh, Jerusalem to Yerushalayim, etc. and by rearranging the Old Testament books back to the Hebrew original arrangement. That is all.
Just as Messianics are Christians in Hebrew dress, the Old Testament translation we all read is Christian doctrine infused in the TNK. “Messianic prophecies”/prooftexts are mistranslated, sometimes even distorted to make them refer to Jesus, that’s why we keep seeing Jesus all over OT. Christians read backwards; NT first, then only when they have to (and usually only verses that would validate Christian doctrine), they read back to OT . . . bringing their Christian orientation with in their reading. You’ve read this in the teaching emails to my son.
You will NEVER read those prooftexts any other way as long as you are reading a Christian translation of the “Old Testament.” You will be quite surprised when you read the same verses in Hebrew translations, you might not even recognize them because of what you’ve been so used to reading.
So where do we get such translations? One source is the ArtScroll Judaica website where you can order the TNK; or any of the English versions of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jewish anti-missionary websites provide the answers to all your questions if you care to check them out. But since you said you would rather not do that at this stage, I will endeavor to answer the questions you raised within your email.
Until IND join us when we could finally have a face to face teaching [if you’re still interested], I will put off all other explanations to any other “prooftexts”.
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EC: You mentioned in one of your emails that Isaiah 9 referred to Hezekiah not Jesus. Isn’t there such a thing as progressive revelation?
NSB@S6K: Christians and Messianics rely on “progressive revelation” to justify their doctrinal stand. Even the Messianic’s Hayesod (the Foundation) opens its teaching with exactly that—God’s complete truth was dispensed through “progressive revelation,” from the first book of OT [Genesis] to the last book of NT [Revelation].
Agreed, God did not throw a completed bible to mankind and say, “read this, it’s all in there”. Instead, HE gave the nation of Israel HIS revelation of–
- WHO HE IS,
- and who they are in relation to HIM,
- and what they are to do to fulfill their part of the Covenant HE made with them.
- Whether or not they do their part, HE will fulfill HIS part.
That foundational revelation (TORAH) shows YHWH teaching HIS covenant people directly through His mouthpieces (Moses, prophets), in the wilderness, in their battles, in the promised land, in the earthly kingdom, in their history (the TNK). That is the progressive part of HIS revelation, they learn to flesh out the Torah in their experience with their GOD. But everything is pretty much established as to —
- WHO their GOD is,
- what HE’s like,
- and how they are to worship HIM
- and live His Torah.
The prophets remind, forewarn, call them to repent and return and live the Torah. There is a figure referred to as “messiah” but when you read the criteria for that figure, he is only a man, not God.
Foundational in this progressive revelation from Genesis to Chronicles (the last book of TNK) —-
- is the ONEness of YHWH,
- And the fact HE does not change.
That ONE GOD is clear to the Hebrew mind; millions of them also died for this belief.
If you study the kind of persecution against the Jew and the persecution against the “Christian” martyrs, there is a difference . . . I will not attempt to explain that here but there are several books devoted to who was persecuted in those early years, by whom, and for what. And later, the persecuting religious/political power is Christianity itself, through the Roman Catholic church which was a religious-political power for almost two decades A.D. until the Protestant Reformation challenged it and the age of Enlightenment challenged God and religion in general. (This is very loose historical commentary, so best to read history for yourself.0
EC: It could have referred to Hezekiah, then to Jesus?
Why would Isaiah call Hezekiah “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father”, and that his kingdom will last forever?
NSB@S6K: Isaiah did not refer Hezekiah as “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father”; the Christian translators of Isaiah mistranslated those verses. You have to read in CONTEXT . . . the literary context, chapter context, what preceded it, and the context of the whole theology of TNK. You cannot isolate those verses from the previous context.
I don’t remember if the explanation I forwarded to you gave the Hebrew rendering of that verse . . . and if I did, then you either take it or leave it, believe it or not. The Christian translation of those verses is DISTORTED. No Hebrew prophet and certainly not Isaiah would ever use those titles for a man, certainly not Hezekiah!! Those titles belong to YHWH alone and no one else, The original audience/reader knew who was being referred to! The unadulterated text says the Mighty God, Everlasting Father called “him” (Hezekiah) the Prince of Peace because of what will happen to Israel during his reign. If that is not the email I forwarded to you, then I should send you the Jewish reading of this verse . . . but then you already said you’d rather put Jewish perspectives off for later . . . so maybe I shouldn’t.
EC: How much of the NT is true? Who can tell?
Again, this is where you either believe modern scholarship or not. And if you don’t, then the only recourse is the TNK’s witness. [My messianic teacher] is not one to believe the witness of biblical scholarship, he calls them “hogwash”; he then has to check the witness of TNK, but he’s allergic to rabbis, saying they’re stubborn and blind. Add to this, he too, like the Messianics, rely on the Greek-based (Septuagint) English translations and the Christian mindset/orientation that reads the TNK through the Christ-centered lens. He still uses his wornout KJV, explaining mistranslated verses (like Matt. 16). He doesn’t even use the messianic translation because he himself says it did not translate Matthew 16 correctly.
You’ll never read messianic prophecy prooftexts any other way except the Christian way. For example, Psalm 2 capitalizes “Son” to make you read it as referring to Jesus the Son of God but the original is small “s” for son. That’s how far these Christian translations of TNK go, and much more!
EC: As I asked earlier, aren’t there extant manuscripts of the NT? I find the teachings of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John (or whoever wrote it) in line with the character of the God of the Bible: loving, forgiving, righteous, just, patient, merciful, etc. And lives have been transformed when they truly turn over their lives to Jesus.
NSB@S6K: At issue is not that the NT teaches to do good, of course it does! Jesus of history (if we really could sift out of all the additions in the gospels what he might have taught) as a Jew would have lived and taught Torah, and that’s about loving, forgiving, being righteous, just, etc. At issue is who Jesus was . . . was he GOD? YHWH? Is YHWH a trinity? The Koran teaches good things too, as do Buddhists, and Hindus . . . but who is their god? Who do they worship? Lots of non-Christian religions teach good and also change lives . . . . so???
EC: Weren’t the apostles martyred? If they were, how could they have died for something untrue?
NSB@S6K: How many terrorist Muslims die for their fanatic beliefs? Dying for one’s faith or being persecuted for one’s faith is not the criterion for TRUTH. 6M Jews died in the holocaust, and you have to read about Hitler’s reason for trying to annihilate them and what he used to justify it . . . Christianity’s antisemitism! It is ironic that Martin Luther’s mother country would be responsible for this while Christian nations looked the other way. But then I’m getting off your original question. Lotsa people needlessly die for their beliefs, like Islamic terrorists and religious fanatics! Doesn’t mean they believed in God’s Unadulterated Truth.
EC: Not considering the transformation of the early disciples (if untrue), we have witnessed lives transformed in our day and age! I for one became more patient, forgiving, content, honest, etc. when I turned over my life to Jesus.
NSB@S6K: Changed lives out of a “religious” belief is normal; you see it in all religions; Christianity is no different. Alcoholics Anonymous transforms lives; Hare Krishna, Brahma Kumaris, Mormons, Jehovahs Witness, Iglesia ni Kristo . . . and many cults! You cannot use ‘changed lives’ as a basis for justifying Jesus was God, and that God is a trinity–those are the 2 issues we’re questioning, right? And the veracity and authenticity of NT canon. Just look at this “Christian” country of ours, from the government officials to the masses—has believing in Christ made a difference in the lives of majority of Christian/Catholic Filipinos, REALLY?
EC: What about the Great Commission?
NSB@S6K: What about it? The great commission in its original text (even if NT is questionable) did not have the Trinitarian formula. Remember the Power New Testament I mentioned in my email to my son? That took out all the questionable added texts, and the original of that verse is “Go and make disciples of all nations” without the “baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
EC: Are we called by the God of the Bible to evangelize?
What has that got to do with the only issues we’re discussing—is Jesus incarnate God and is God a Trinity?
What does YHWH intend for Israel, His covenant people? They are to be a “light to the gentiles.” Through their Torah living, gentiles will be attracted to their God. Today the Jews REMAIN the ONLY people obeying TORAH, faithful to YHWH. They don’t evangelize; they don’t have to; those who are awakened by YHWH return to the true faith in the TRUE GOD and start living TORAH.
Zechariah 14:23 — “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
The 4 servant songs of Isaiah . . all refer to Israel as the servant, the 4th “suffering servant” (Isaiah 53) doesn’t suddenly change to refer to Jesus; it still refers to Israel which will be vindicated.
Nations will see how the prophecies about Israel will be 100% fulfilled, and because of that the whole world will believe in the God of Israel WHO is the True God.
EC: I now find myself reluctant to visit ailing neighbors for I don’t know how to pray…
I’m hesitant when I pray in public…trying not to end with “in Jesus’ name”.
NSB@S6K: Until you are sure about what I’m sharing, please do according to what you have always believed. [Our former Messianic friends who did not agree us when we took this different pathway] are SURE about their faith/belief and are quite happy to continue trusting in NT as God’s inspired word, and Jesus as God, and God as Trinity. Stay in your faith until you have reason to doubt.
EC: Under my breath I say “in Yaweh’s name”… what do I do with all the Christian books I have accumulated or bought to give away as gifts!
NSB@S6K: Give them away as you intended. Strangely, God used catholicism, protestant-evangelical religions, messianics to bring me to where I am now, a long way around but HE knows best how to direct us, I can’t complain, I’m just glad I’ve finally arrived! Had I never read and understood TNK because of messianic teaching, I never would have met the God of Sinai and His repeated self-revelation as being ONE. I’ve invested enough money on books I no longer believe in, but I will still place my books in the Sanctuary library. VAN/BAN@S6K donated their Christian books to Bread of Life; their messianic books to the Messianic Congregation. God can use these for the other seekers.
EC: what CD’s do I play to encourage me when most of my CD’s sing about Jesus!
Sometimes I feel guilty feeling I’ve rejected Jesus without a trial…
NSB@S6K: Stay where you are, with Jesus, you’re comfortable there for now and maybe for good.
EC: I’m hanging on… Is there a group of like mind I can meet with in Manila?
NSB@S6K: There is none that I know of. For us who are into this, it has become a personal faith now, as we’ve determined and decided for ourselves. Who’s going to listen to this unwelcome message? It is the REAL INCONVENIENT TRUTH!
[Our messianic teacher “R”] is right in saying Divine Truth is shared by YHWH to those who seek, and even with flawed translations, God’s light nevertheless shines.
Did you ever read what I suggested earlier—Ezekiel 18 and Deuteronomy 30 . . . you will read there the simplicity of YHWH’s way of salvation. “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” Even Yeshua of history supposedly announced that.
Shalom . . .
