[The next couple of discourses are installments of Sinaite VAN’s answer to the many points raised in Discourse #11 by “CP”. Are readers learning anything from this exchange? You should! Here are two equals, church leaders, evangelists, both biblically educated (in the New Testament) though the Sinaite went farther in his “Old Testament” reorientation by studying the original Hebrew Scriptures minus Christian retranslation and reinterpretation. —Admin1]
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Dear “CP” —
- I defend my stand based solely on the Hebrew translation of the TNK,
- while you defend your stand from the Christian Bible (Christian translation of the Old Testament and the New Testament).
If we were basing our arguments on the basis of the same Scriptures, then it would simply be a matter of discussing the context (historical, cultural, literary). Still, this whole effort at explaining our views to one another is not wasted, since our discourse is open to others in the website. Discourse is a good teaching tool; open-minded readers learn from each side.
Next: Discourse – Sinaite to Christian Pastor -12
Postscript:
Here is a link that might help in understanding the Passover feast and the passover lamb: http://noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/index.php/judaism-articles/judaism-v-christianity/2012/04/the-paschal-lamb-is-not-an-atonement/
The Paschal Lamb is not an atonement, it is an act of defiance!
Exodus 8:22 (so much for Jesus as “the paschal lamb”).
“’What we will sacrifice to HaShem our L-rd is sacred to the Egyptians. Could we sacrifice the sacred animal of the Egyptians before their very eyes and not have them stone us?”
Moses clearly tells Pharaoh (and us) that the animal to be sacrificed by the Jews is sacred (e.g., a G-d) to the Egyptians. The paschal lamb (or sheep) has nothing whatsoever to do with atoning for sins.
We know that the Egyptian Kevatim would worship the Zodiac sign of the sheep (Aries). To this end, they banned the slaughter of sheep and despised sheep traders and shepherds (Ex.8:22,Bereshit 46:34 ) ….
It was for this very reason that we were commanded to slaughter the Paschal lamb, daubing its blood – in Egypt – on the doorways, in full view. This was to cleanse ourselves of those (idolatrous) views and to publicise the very opposite; in order to internalize the notion that the very act that they (Egypt) expect to bring our destruction ( ie. the slaughter of the gods) will save us from destruction;
Rambam (circa 12th century in the “Guide to the Perplexed) said:
Scripture tells us, according to the Version of Onkelos, that the Egyptians worshipped Aries, and therefore abstained from killing sheep, and held shepherds in contempt. Comp.
”Behold we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians,” etc. (Exod. viii. 26):”
For every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians” (Gen. Avi. 34).
Some sects among the Sabeans worshipped demons, and imagined that these assumed the form of goats, and called them therefore” goats” This worship was widespread.
Comp.
”And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto demons, after whom they have gone a whoring” (Lev. xvii. 7).
For this reason those sects abstained from eating goats’ flesh. Most idolaters objected to killing cattle, holding this species of animals in great estimation. Therefore the people of Hodu [Indians] up to this day do not slaughter cattle even in those countries where other animals are slaughtered. In order to eradicate these false principles, the Law commands us to offer sacrifices only of these three kinds :
” Ye shall bring your offering of the cattle [viz.], of the herd and of the flock” (Lev. i. 2).
Thus the very act which is considered by the heathen as the greatest crime, is the means of approaching G-d, and obtaining His pardon for our sins. In this manner, evil principles, the diseases of the human soul, are cured by other principles which are diametrically opposite.
This is also the reason why we were commanded to kill a lamb on Passover, and to sprinkle the blood thereof outside on the gates. We had to free ourselves of evil doctrines and to proclaim the opposite, viz., that the very act which was then considered as being the cause of death would be the cause of deliverance from death.
Comp.
”And HaShem will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come unto your houses to suite you” (Exod. idi. 23).
Thus they were rewarded for performing openly a service every part of which was objected to by the idolaters.
The Egyptians worshipped sheep / lambs and ergo the sacrifice of the lamb was an “in your face” to them (while showing a believe in HaShem that the Egyptians wouldn’t kill them for slaughtering the Egyptian “G-d.).
An interesting bit of trivia about Passover:
The astrological symbol of the month of Nisan (the month of Passover) is Aries, the ram (male sheep).
Additional thoughts are found in Midrash Rabba, too.
“You will find that when Israel were in Egypt, they served idols, which they were reluctant to abandon, for it says:
G-d then said to Moses:
‘As long as Israel worship Egyptian G-ds, they will not be redeemed; go and tell them to abandon their evil ways and to reject idolatry.’
Rambam goes on to say that by slaughtering an Egyptian G-d (the lamb / sheep) the Israelites accomplished 3 things:
1. They showed faith in HaShem – that HaShem was more powerful than the Egyptian G-ds and the Egyptians themselves (who would normally kill anyone who hurt their “G-ds.”).
2. The Israelites proved themselves not to be idolaters.
3. They (and HaShem) showed the Egyptians that their G-ds were false and powerless in the face of HaShem. The Talmud tells us that Torah decrees we select our sheep or ram (cf. Shemot 12:5 which treats them identically) four days in before the sacrifice to re-enforce to the Egyptians just how powerless they were in the presence of HaShem. It was most definitely “in your face.” As was smearing the blood of the sacrificed animals on the doorposts. This was an outright affront no Egyptian could miss.
Why would G-d command that we smear it on the OUTSIDE of the houses if the purpose were just for G-d to “see” it? (Shemot 12:13; ve-ra’iti et ha-dam).
Nope, Rebecca, it HAD to be outside so the Egyptians would see it! It gets even better.
Ibn Ezra tells us G-d commanded we roast the animal rather than cooking it in a pot or eating it raw, so the Egyptians would SMELL their G-d being cooked. You see, in a pot you can cover it with a lid – but by roasting the smell would be unmistakable.
IN YOUR FACE, not meek and mild. Most definitely. Not meek. Not an atonement – a DARE. A defiant act. And an act of infinite trust in G-d’s saving power.
34. You shall say, ‘Your servants have been owners of livestock from our youth until now, both we and our ancestors,’ so that you may dwell in the land of Goshen, because all shepherds are abhorrent to the Egyptians.”
(Rashi: shepherds are abhorrent to the Egyptians Because they (the sheep) are their gods).
” We know that the Egyptian Kevatim would worship the Zodiac sign of the sheep (Aries). To this end, they banned the slaughter of sheep and despised sheep traders and shepherds (Ex.8:22,Bereshit 46:34 ) ….
Tagged as: Jesus is NOT the Paschal Lamb!
Terry Hayes April 4, 2012 at 1:26 pm
- I would like to add another thought as well.
So many christians want to use the Passover to show power of the blood. But the power of salvation in the Pesach story was not in the blood of the lamb but in the obedience of the Israelite – The blood on the door was a sign that those inside obeyed the commandment of G-d – those who did not obey suffered the consequences of disobedience
MaApril 14, 2014 at 4:01 amPlease re-check your references,The sheep/ram was FIRST used as a sacrifice by Abraham.
- And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said , My father: and he said , Here am I, my son. And he said , Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?And Abraham said , My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them togetherAnd Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked , and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search resultAnd he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old , and a she goat of three years old , and a ram of three years old , and a turtledove, and a young pigeon .
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