[Posted in 2013, this email exchange is between M, a Messianic missionary, and a collaborative work of several Sinaites.  Actually, the original email that started this from M was not intended to be challenged; it was sent to his Messianic flock, ala Paul’s letters, to the churches M planted. We just turned it into a discourse because since we were at the end of his tirades and we felt we needed to defend our new-found faith in the God of the Hebrew Scriptures. We were not copy-furnished the “epistle” and can’t even remember how we got a copy of it.

Discourses are educational and mind-expanding; they give you a running discussion on a common topic from two opposing views. Like passive spectators watching a sports match, you learn while rooting for your player or team. You learn to weigh the evidence you hear, and make a decision in the end or remain neutral. Regardless, that exposure to differing views is always a good thing! Who wins in the end? Hopefully, Truth, and the God of Truth and if you chose THAT side, then you win as well!

Translations: EF/Everett Fox, The Five Books of Moses; AST/ArtScroll Tanach., JPS/Jewish Publication Society.—Admin1.]

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Messianic:

Genesis 18:13-14

Three “men” came to visit Abraham:

• One is the LORD Yeshua,
• the other two are angels, who later on go down to Sodom to rescue Lot and family.

Yeshua in human form, a Theophany, is visiting with Abraham in his tent about their child next year, and about the soon destruction of Sodom. I am always amazed and encouraged by the LORD Yeshua’s words and actions! Truly, nothing is impossible for Him!

S6K Comment:

Where in the TEXT does it indicate that one of these “men” is “the LORD Yeshua?” Jesus of Nazareth has not been introduced anywhere in Genesis!  Plain and simple reading rules require that one does not read another character who has not been introduced into the narrative. This is the problem with Christian infusion of its theology into the Genesis narrative. It is against reading rules to do this. Writers do not violate this rule, and neither should any reader.

Messianic:

Sarah will have her baby, with Abraham, next year when they are 90 & 100 years old!! Their conversation probably [?] covered many topics, including “Yeshua’s Day” in John 8:56-58.

S6K:

How could Abraham fast-forward his thinking to the time of Yeshua? Who can read Abraham’s mind at the time this was happening except the ALL-Knowing God of Abraham? Genesis does not indicate this even if the writer of John’s gospel recounts it centuries later as Christian ‘gospel truth’.

Messianic:

“Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw it, and rejoiced. Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!”

Yeshua is Deity!

S6K:

Just because someone makes claims like Yeshua supposedly does in this text does not make him “Deity” . . . YHWH is clear WHO is DEITY:   HE and no one else! Anyone can say what Jesus said here, it still doesn’t make anyone, in this case Jesus, GOD Himself.

Messianic:

In Genesis 19, the other two are identified as angels in human form, while we see an amazing identification of “the LORD” on earth separate from “the LORD” in heaven.

Genesis 19:24

“Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.”

S6K:

Here are 2 renderings of the same verse:

Artscroll: “Now HaShem caused sulfur and fire to rain upon Sodom and Gomorrah, from HaShem out of heaven.”

A reader who believes in a Trinitarian deity will see “2”; another reader who is monotheistic and believes YHWH is One as He has repeatedly declared all over the Hebrew Scriptures will see “1”.

The rendering, we believe, is simply a Hebraism, a typical Hebrew way of expression using repetition, sometime saying the same thing in 2 ways. It is NOT evidence of a TRINITY, nor of FATHER-GOD and SON-GOD. The same word is used in the KJV [LORD] as in Artscroll [HaSHEM], meaning the same person, not 2 different persons.

Who is LORD? The Father or the Son? Are they both LORD? And that is the problem with substituting LORD or even HaShem for the Tetragrammaton Name wherever it occurs.

Messianic:

The LORD on earth was the One who visited with Abraham, the God of the impossible, identified in John 1:1-3 as the Word, the spokesman for God, being God Himself, and also as the prominent One in Creation!

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

S6K:

When the proof presented is found in NT, which superimposes its trinitarian theology on TNK where YHWH HIMSELF keep’s declaring HE is One and there is NO OTHER . . . NT is contradicting YHWH’s claim about His Nature, His Name, His being ONE.

Messianic:

When we read Genesis 1:3, “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light,” this again is Yeshua speaking! The text simply says In the beginning GOD . . . and this GOD starts creating by simply speaking . . .

S6K:

With all due respect, how can Yeshua be injected here except by a theology that keeps insisting Yeshua pre-existed as God? ‘Sequel NT’ claims have to be supported by ‘Prequel TNK’ claims but in the TNK, nowhere is Yeshua present nor even hinted at as God except in the chosen prooftexts reinterpreted as evidence; Christian orientation sees Yeshua so clearly all over TNK; Jews and Sinaites do not.

Messianic:

I conclude by this and many other passages that Yeshua is the One active and speaking with mankind on earth, while the Father and the Spirit are active but mostly silent in the background.

S6K:

When one gets to know the GOD of Abraham, Moses, and Israel as clearly delineated in TNK, the NT claims appear forced and in fact contrived by men who changed the very nature of GOD in their writings and turned Him into something never claimed nor forecasted in TNK, except in their reinterpretation and rewriting of the TNK.

Messianic:

Does this bother the Father? NO! He is pleased!

S6K:

Where in TNK does it say this? It is in the NT, but not in OT. In fact the TNK keeps repeating how YHWH is a jealous God, who demands worship to HIM alone and to no one else, certainly not a man.

Messianic:

This is their Plan! There is no conflict among Father, Son, and Spirit!

S6K:

Again, an NT claim, nowhere in TNK or TORAH.

Messianic:

They have perfect harmony. Philippians 2:9-11.

“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus/Yeshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.”

S6K:

There is aTNK verse that says exactly this, referring to YHWH . . . it is where this whole verse has been lifted:

Messianic:

In Manila we recently had a Seminar on “Biblical Creationism.”  Again, Yeshua is the prime Creator, together with the Father and the Spirit, Who hovers over the mass of material just created, before God begins His 6 days of Creation.

God could have done it all in one day, but He chose to create all in an ordered sequence of 6 days of 24 hours per day. Impossible?? Not for our God! And I do not accept any idea of any “Pre-Adamic World” as explored by Daniel Botkin in this issue of Petah Tikvah, nor any “Gap Theory” between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The Creation, the Universe, is only about 6,000 years old, from “In The Beginning…” Any departure from this plain statement is a slippery slope away from trusting God completely.

S6K:

This is hindsight post-website infusion, please check out Gerald L. Schroeder

• MUST READ: God According to God [A Physicist Proves We’ve Been Wrong About God All Along]
• “The Science of God” – MUST READ
• Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery of Harmony Between Modern Science and the Bible
• The Hidden Face of God: How Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth

Messianic:

Now, what about the Task that God has given to you and me? Do you get discouraged? Does it seem “impossible”? Do you feel inadequate for the responsibilities before you? Do you think that you lack resources to do the job? Of course – all of the above!!

S6K:

Why should we get discouraged? God doesn’t give man impossible commandments that are beyond man’s ability to fulfill. Just like a human father knows what his child at any age is capable of doing.

Deuteronomy 30 says —-

Messianic:

God has given each of us tasks and responsibilities way beyond ourselves, because He wants us to learn to Trust Him for everything.

S6K:

2 Chronicles 16

“9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is whole toward Him. Herein thou hast done foolishly; for from henceforth thou shalt have wars.’ (JPS)

Yes, we Sinaites trust YHWH for everything, but He has enabled us (as opposed to being helpless because of inherited sin and being born condemned) to make the right choice and to obey his commandments, not ignore them because Paul in NT teaches “we are under grace not law.” We have always been under grace, and the “law” is part of God’s grace to all humanity.

Messianic:

We have just passed through Yom Kippur. What did it mean to you? Did the observance enable you to renew your Commitment to Him to qualify for His “strong support” for the future? Was Sukkot a joyful New Beginning? After all, Yeshua did not make “atonement” (covering) for our sins for another year. Instead, Yeshua made Propitiation = Full Payment for our sins forever which should give us great Peace and Joy, and Confidence to—

 “forget those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:13-14.

S6K:

Again, another NT claim. Propitiation “full payment”? Dictionary definition says “appeasing a god” which is hardly “full payment.” Is this another redefinition of a dictionary word to suit NT theology?

Messianic:

Now that we have been strengthened through the Fall Moedim, we should be able to discern the tactics and activities of the enemy, who goes around like a roaring lion to destroy all the Believers that he possibly can. How I pray for the gift of discernment for all of you!

S6K:

We too pray for discernment for all our Christian/Messianic friends, but discernment comes with lots of study and exposure to a variety of sources, not simply listening to one side while eschewing others.

Messianic:

Lately some of our brethren have fallen victim to Satan’s deceptions and now claim that Jesus/Yeshua was only a mistaken human being, fathered by some man, maybe a Roman soldier, who thought that God would honor his messianic claims, but ended up being crucified, a sad mistake in their opinion.

S6K:

Why does man keep blaming “satan” for deception, aren’t men capable of it without help? Each should do some research on the roots of their beliefs; simply read an objective history of the religion of Christianity from its beginnings; don’t be afraid as well, to check out scholarship and many investigations on the Jesus of history. Weigh all ‘evidence’ against each other, and most importantly, use reason and logic.

Messianic:

They claim that the Apostolic Scriptures were written by ignorant fishermen and other unknown fiction writers. They forget that the “ignorant fishermen” had the Torah memorized from early age, the common Jewish educational system of that time, but did not have a “certificate” from a recognized Yeshiva!

S6K:

Memorizing Torah is different from learning how to read and write. The textual/literary/linguistic evidence shows that Peter could not have written in the Greek of I & 2 Peter. The research on the authorship of NT books is extensive. Read as many books and then make a conclusion.

Messianic:

This apostasy began in Singapore and continued in Baguio, and then in Manila. Apostasy is defined as ” the abandonment or renunciation of a political or religious belief.”

S6K:

Finally we have one point of agreement; admittedly, we are ‘apostates’ because we have abandoned belief in Jesus as God, and worship only the One True God of the Hebrew Scriptures.

M:

Which brings me to the very important subject of Leadership! All of these apostates were in leadership positions!

S6K:

Give these leaders more credit . . . if we never questioned the beliefs we’ve been taught and swallowed without questioning for all of our lives, now that we’ve done our own research and study . . . it takes courage to move on from a major religion and popular belief. Why would anyone do that, unless he is fully convicted that what he has believed all along has been wrong?

Messianic:

How could these possibly deny Yeshua after claiming to have known Him (did they really??) for many years and taught His Word?

S6K:

We all knew Yeshua only as taught and brainwashed that he is everything Christianity decided he should be, decisions by mere councils of men 3 centuries A.D., or CE. In hindsight, we REALLY did not know Jesus/Yeshua . . . .

Messianic:

The result of their defection from Yeshua and the Newer Testament has also affected some of the “sheep” under their care.

S6K:

The “sheep” under our care were free to decide for themselves if they too, after doing their own research and study, agree or disagree with us. In fact you were given the opportunity to present the other side to some of them at a class. Nobody was brainwashed nor coerced into believing or following any of us, we should give the sheep more credit for making their stand on their own.

Messianic:

Rarely was the leadership of Israel godly, leading the people in the Bible way, but then, many of the Prophets and other leaders had to contend with a stubborn people. Look at one of Jeremiah’s attempts to lead the people in God’s way:

Jeremiah 44:15-18.

Messianic:

What is the apparent motive for this worship? It seems to be, “What can this god do for me? If this Queen of Heaven god can supply my needs and give me a peaceful life, then why not worship her?” Is the “here and now” all that counts? Not to us, don’t know what you’re leading to here.

S6K:

How is “Queen of Heaven” and utilitarian religion applicable to us? Are you accusing us of false motives for our worship of the God of Israel’s TNK? How many Christians and Messianics think of worshipping the true God in this way? Why did Yirmeyahu/Jeremiah put up with all the suffering he had to endure in his service to the God of Israel? He did what he was told because Jeremiah knew Israel’s God, YHWH, and loved Him; he was in a covenant relationship as an Israelite and was one of YHWH’s mouthpieces to His chosen people. Yirmeyahu worshipped the same God we now worship, YHWH; certainly not Jesus who didn’t even exist then except on the insistence of Christian theology.

Messianic:

Did you fast for Yom Kippur? Why? Did you enjoy fasting? I fasted but I never enjoy it, except it is what is pleasing to my Father.

S6K:

You’ve been talking all this time about the Son, so now you’re fasting to please the Father? You would please Him more if you worshipped Him and give Him His due instead of the so-called Son.

Messianic:

Now back to the question, “Did these apostates really have a Covenant relationship with God, were they Family members?” Only God knows that, but we need to think it through, based on Scripture.

Let John 1:19-23 help us:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One (truly born-from-Above!), and you all have knowledge… Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.”

S6K:

The word “christ” is equivalent to the Hebrew “maschiach” or “messiah.” We no longer agree that Jesus was the “messiah” referred to in TNK; so in that sense, yes we are indeed “anti-christs”, but we still believe in the coming of YHWH’s prophesied “messiah.” We were with you, believing and worshipping the Christian version of God, and now we went out from among you, fortunately for us, and we are not of you anymore in terms of belief and worship! We don’t need to be ‘born from above”, we merely do what YHWH has commanded His people —to love Him, love our fellowmen, live the Torah.

Messianic:

I am thinking now that many have been “Born Again” emotionally, psychologically, politically and made changes in their life, but have never been “Born-From-Above” by the Spirit of God, never having been indwelt and sealed by His Spirit, not a genuine “conversion.” I do not mean any charismatic expression, which is a weak or false foundation! I do not think that anyone truly “saved, born-from-Above” can ever deny Yeshua and depart from Him, especially over such flimsy, deceitful reasons. Yes, the “elect” can be deceived if not walking closely with Yeshua, but if “elect,” then discipline from God happens. If not “elect,” and no discipline is evident, then we have to conclude that they must be bastards, counterfeits, “tares” and not wheat.

What does Yeshua say in Hebrews 12:5-8:

“And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.”

Lets take a look at Matthew 13:36-43.

“Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us(insiders!) the parable of the tares (‘darnel” inferior wheat, not weeds!) of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world (kosmos); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and (first!) they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Do tares, counterfeit wheat, know that they are tares and not good seed? I doubt it. I think they have deceived themselves into a false assurance based on a faulty understanding of Scripture and the basis of Salvation, maybe still from their church days. Yom Kippur and Hebrews 9-10 make it very clear that “without the shedding of blood there is no payment for sin.” There has been no blood in Judaism ever since AD 70, when the Pharisees revamped Judaism to exist without the Temple, priesthood, and blood sacrifices. That means there is no salvation in Judaism! It also means that there is no salvation in keeping the Noahide laws, a more modern invention to keep Gentiles out of Judaism. We know clearly that there is no salvation in keeping Torah, for Torah is for Believers, those who have a Covenant relationship with God. Remember too that “Abrahamic Faith” includes a knowledge of and surrender to YHVH Yeshua, Son of God and only Savior for mankind. Brethren, we need to be sure our Testimonies and Messages are always clear and to the point, especially in evangelism. Most of you have taken HaYesod or Roots. The basic Foundation is there.

Without Yeshua The Messiah you are not Messianic! Without Jesus Christ you are not even a Christian! Without the Newer Testament/Apostolic Scriptures you do not have the Complete Revelation that God gave, which fills in many details and is the only Inspired expansion of Truth on the basics in the Tanakh/Hebrew Scriptures. We find no conflict between OT & NT, but find that they fit together perfectly. Why? Because God wrote both!

S6K:

Thank you, bring it on! Points of agreement:

• Without Yeshua the Messiah, we are NOT Messianic.
• Without Jesus Christ, we are not even Christian.

As for the claim that the “Newer/Apostolic Scriptures” complete the incomplete revelation that God gave, and that there is no conflict between “older” and “newer” — we do not agree—no, the “old” and the “new” of the Christian Bible might have been programmed to agree so that they indeed “fit together perfectly”, but when you get exposed to the Hebrew rendering of the Sinai Revelation, Divine Truth has its distinct and self-confirming message that reverberates through the ages to our day.

Let us give as we always should give the last word to the Revelator Himself  . . . and guess what, that “last word” is not found in the Christian New Testament last book “the revelation of Jesus Christ” but in the last book of the original and true Sinai revelation as faithfully recorded by Moses and whoever picked up his pen when he was given his well-deserved rest.

JPS/Deuteronomy 4

This is in reply to your email of the 16^th April on Isaiah 48:12-13 and 16.

And, this is my understanding as it is written in the Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures ):

(1). v 12 – 13 The Prophet Isaiah speaking God’s words—

• calling Jacob as Israel, the name He gave Jacob,
• proclaiming God’s omnipotence
• and declaring that God is the Creator…
• ”My hands founded the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens..”. The ‘Me” and the “I” is God ,

YHWH. I do not believe this is Yeshua.

v 14 The Prophet Isaiah still speaking—

• and having proclaimed God’s omnipotence,
• is now calling on the idolaters to gather
• and declare that God has made Cyrus,
  • the one whom the “LORD loves”
  • to carry out His will against the Chaldeans.

(2). v 16 Here the Prophet Isaiah is still speaking—

• and he declares that he had spoken his prophecy regarding Sennacherib’s downfall (chap. 37)
• for all to hear from the very first time it was revealed to him by God.

Isaiah then issues a new prophecy (v 17). The “me” and the “I” is Isaiah the Prophet. Again, not Yeshua.

(3). Now coming to the “Lamb of God who takes the sins of the world” who, according to the Apostolic (New Testament) writers the “lamb” is Yeshua  who was offered as a sacrifice for our sins.

As I study the Torah, the sacrifices, as instituted by God, were all animals. I  have  not come across human sacrifices except those offered to the god Molech and this is condemned by God. I could not understand where the  Apostolic  writers got this idea that this is acceptable to God.

Also, the  animals sacrificed were “slaughtered” not “crucified”. How then did the “crucifixion” got into the picture? Yeshua, man, was “crucified” as a sacrifice. Has God changed His mind? God did not even allow Abraham  to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice (Gen.22). Abraham offered a ram instead for a burnt offering in place of his son.

I thank Adonai Eloheinu for you who have led me to the study of the Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures) and I thank Him for giving me the knowledge and the wisdom at 83 (clear thinking for a bonus!) and a better, clearer understanding of His words. I pray that we will all get there.

By the way, I would like to suggest, if I may, to please check out these websites: Messiahtruth.org  and Outreachjudaism.com ,  two of the websites that would give you the “other side” of the picture.

I would also suggest that you get a good copy of the Hebrew Scriptures. What I have is The Stone Edition, The Tanach, Artscroll Series. It is a translation from Hebrew to English. And, it is not adulterated.

Hag Pesach Sameach!

VAN@S6K

 
This is in reply to your email of the 16^th April on Isaiah 48:12-13 and 16. And, this is my understanding as it is written in the Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures ):

(1). v 12 – 13 The Prophet Isaiah speaking God’s words—

• calling Jacob as Israel, the name He gave Jacob,
• proclaiming God’s omnipotence
• and declaring that God is the Creator…
• ”My hands founded the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens..”. The ‘Me” and the “I” is God ,

YHWH. I do not believe this is Yeshua.

v 14 The Prophet Isaiah still speaking—

• and having proclaimed God’s omnipotence,
• is now calling on the idolaters to gather
• and declare that God has made Cyrus,
  • the one whom the “LORD loves”
  • to carry out His will against the Chaldeans.

(2). v 16 Here the Prophet Isaiah is still speaking—

• and he declares that he had spoken his prophecy regarding Sennacherib’s downfall (chap. 37)
• for all to hear from the very first time it was revealed to him by God.

Isaiah then issues a new prophecy (v 17). The “me” and the “I” is Isaiah the Prophet. Again, not Yeshua.

(3). Now coming to the “Lamb of God who takes the sins of the world” who, according to the Apostolic (New Testament) writers the “lamb” is Yeshua  who was offered as a sacrifice for our sins.

As I study the Torah, the sacrifices, as instituted by God, were all animals. I have  not come across human sacrifices except those offered to the god Molech and this is condemned by God. I could not understand where the  Apostolic  writers got this idea that this is acceptable to God. Also, the  animals sacrificed were “slaughtered” not “crucified”. How then did the “crucifixion” got into the picture? Yeshua, man, was “crucified” as a sacrifice. Has God changed His mind? God did not even allow Abraham  to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice (Gen.22). Abraham offered a ram instead for a burnt offering in place of his son.

I thank Adonai Eloheinu for you who have led me to the study of the Tanach (Hebrew Scriptures) and I thank Him for giving me the knowledge and the wisdom at 83 (clear thinking for a bonus!) and a better, clearer understanding of His words. I pray that we will all get there.

By the way, I would like to suggest, if I may, to please check out these websites: Messiahtruth.org and Outreachjudaism.com , two of the websites that would give you the “other side” of the picture.

I would also suggest that you get a good copy of the Hebrew Scriptures. What I have is The Stone Edition, The Tanach, Artscroll Series. It is a translation from Hebrew to English. And, it is not adulterated.

Hag Pesach Sameach!

VAN@S6K

[If you’re following this discourse series, this covers the period before the parting of ways of our small group of Messianics, Christians and independent unchurched from our fellowship/church affiliations.  The Messianic here is our long-time teacher whom we followed from Christianity to his Messianic belief system, taught us for 2 decades at least.  To his credit, he did give us a hearing but refuted our claims all the way, as we expected. We had not organized into Sinai 6000 at the time; we simply got out of Christianity.  Original email exchanges have been edited.–Admin1]

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Dec 4, 2010

M:  

I thought you were going to explain to me your position, with VAN/BAN or any others, so I can verbally hear your position…listen, not argue, and counter your position if possible.  I need to understand you!!  After all these years, we cannot just split without some interaction!!  That is not Torah.

So I will make time for you…You do not sound like the NSB I thought I knew!!  Sayang..…………[Tagalog for “what a pity” or “what a waste.”

NSB@S6K:  

What is “sayang” about refocusing back to YHWH and TNK?  How can FINALLY discovering YHWH and learning to worship Him and no one else  be “sayang”?

Isn’t HE the One True God?

Wouldn’t HE be worth knowing in His self-revelation and action/interaction with Israel as recorded in TNK?

I thought all your teaching was about bringing us back to our Hebraic roots? So now I am taking that route seriously, wholeheartedly, and learning so much more about the Jewish perspective on everything I never knew about and I find I am finally understanding so much more than I ever did from christianity/messianic teaching on the nature of God, sin, atonement, etc.

I have coordinated with BAN to have a meeting at her house first thing Wednesday so we could all talk about our return to our Jewish roots. I will not be joining the noon Bible class with you, I really want my group to give you a hearing because they’ve only heard from me lately.  You will provide the balance. Please encourage them to ask questions about anything they’re not clear about. Filipinos are shy about expressing their disagreement so this gives them total freedom to discuss with you.

M:  

No problem…we will see how things develop, with the turmoil in Egypt and other countries setting the stage for pressure on Israel, and then see who is right.

BAN@S6K: 

Shalom, once again thank you for your input on Gen. 3:15; I do agree with you that messiah and messianic vision is at the heart of the Jewish people, for after all the messianic vision is an original concept at the heart of traditional Judaism, and the dream of an eventual redemption is one of its foundations.

Where we (NSB, VAN, and I, and of course the Jews) digress from you and the Christian world is your interpretation of WHO the messiah is.  You have identified him as Jesus Christ, the son of God, who is God himself made flesh, which is not at all validated by the Tanach, as evidenced by the mistranslations and misinterpretations advocated by believers in Jesus Christ.

We would rather cling to what God says in-—[AST Tanach]

• Exodus 20:2-3 –  

I am HASHEM, your God, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence.

• Deuteronomy 4:35 – 

You have been shown in order to know that HASHEM, He is the God!  There is none beside Him!

• Isaiah 43:10-11 – 

You are My witnesses —the word of HASHEM —and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before Me nothing was created by a god nor will there be after Me!

—–and many other passages as the Tanach is full of God’s affirmation that He alone is God and there is no other.

With regards Genesis 3:15, NSB has adequately declared our stand—we find no messianic prophecy in it at all.  As you have said, you find Jesus in all of Tanach, and yet we do not see that at all.

It all boils down to your faith in Jesus because you believe in the apostolic scriptures; thus, we will neer have a meeting of mind and heart.

We believe only in the One True God as He has revealed Himself in the Tanach.  Let us study His Word with no baggage of Christian theology and see how the Spirit of Adonai will lead us.  Until then, Adonai’s blessings on all of us.  May His Spirit lead us to His truth.

M:  

Shalom, I may need to get a Stone Edition of the Tanakh to continue checking on things, but this morning I decided to check out Genesis 3:15.  Both my JPS Tanakh and my Pentateuch & Haftorahs translate as: …..

between your offspring and hers; They shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at their heel. 

I am bold to pit my elementary Hebrew against them [referring to Jewish translators], because the Hebrew text clearly says “hu” = he, not they, and of course “ata” = you singular.  These false translations are trying to cover up for the prophecy of The Messiah who will be a person, the offspring of the woman, not all of Israel, as they may try to say.

Of course, The Messiah is all through the TNK in addition to the other meshiach persons, like the king and priest.  The question is, Who is This Messiah?  The January issue of Israel Today has a good section on false messiahs of the past, including Schneerson (sp, I have misplaced my copy) of the Chabad Lubavitch.  If you are really going to “Think Jewish,” you will need to Think Messiah, as The Messiah is at the heart of the Jewish people all through time, the heart of the Davidic Covenant, whether certain Jewish scholars want to admit to the Person or push their idea of a messianic age only.

I just want you to be aware that the scholarship of current Jewish anti-missionaries is not fully honest.  Some of their logic is foolish, and the comparisons they make from OT with NT.  They have an agenda and hatred against Messianics in particular, and are getting lots of money for their efforts.  As you know, we are putting our own money into our ministry.

I can find flaws in their writings and arguments just using logic, a fuller context of passages, and my Interlinear Hebrew, plus my JPS Tanakh.  I do not have the Stone version yet.

With world events lurching on toward our Prophecy position, while you ignore the NT, are you going to accept the mark of the beast on your hand or forehead, as it seems the preparation for that is beginning?

I will not bother you 3 much as I have a lot of preparation to do for our next trip to Manila . . . . But if you find a “gem of Truth,” pass it on.  I am not blind to what is going on, nor blind to the history of the Bible texts in ages past, BUT my Trust in YHVH is unshakeable that He will not allow me to be deceived as long as I am completely honest with Him!!   BTW, even in my JPS Tanakh there are TWO YHVH in Genesis 19:24, the Son on earth calling down fire from the Father in heaven.

BAN:  

Thank you that you have not given up on us.  I appreciate your concern and your desire to put us ‘in the light.’  These past months have been an intensive time for us (NSB, VAN, and I) studying the Tanach and the apostolic scriptures, and researching all available sources (Jewish, Christian secular, etc.) we could lay our hands on in order to get to the truth of Adonai’s word.  We might not be scholars on your level, but we rely on what God has revealed in His word, coupled with prayer that He shows us His truth and the willingness to be humble to admit our errors if we are wrong in our conclusions.

I have been following the email exchanges between you and NSB.  I see that there would not be a meeting of the mind and heart between us (NSB, VAN and I) since we are coming from a different presupposition.  As NSB has said, we do not accept the canonicity of the apostolic scriptures anymore.  It would be useless for us to ask you to accept our conviction (the Tanach is the sole rule of faith as it is the only revealed word of God) and rejecting the canonicity of NT after having studied and researched on how it came to be written.

My challenge is that we all continue to study and pray to come to know the truth.  Adonai will surely answer this kind of prayer.  He will not respond to both of us affirming our different convictions.  And when He answers, may He give us the grace to accept and to humble ourselves in admitting our erroneous conclusions.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, guide us as we persevere in our walk of faith in Him.

NSB:  

Well said, BAN, let’s rest our case! There is no ‘Shalom’ between us anymore even if we keep saying it to each other.  God’s TRUTH is really a 2-edge sword, dividing former friends who become serious seekers of the TRUE GOD.

As he said, we will “see who is right.”

[If you’re following this discourse series, this covers the period before the parting of ways of our small group of Messianics, Christians and independent unchurched from our fellowship/church affiliations.  The Messianic here is our long-time teacher whom we followed from Christianity to his Messianic belief system, taught us for 2 decades at least.  To his credit, he did give us a hearing but refuted our claims all the way, as we expected. We had not organized into Sinai 6000 at this time; we simply got out of Christianity.  Original email exchanges have been edited.]

Dec 4, 2010

M:  I thought you were going to explain to me your position, with VAN/BAN or any others, so I can verbally hear your position…listen, not argue, and counter your position if possible.  I need to understand you!!  After all these years, we cannot just split without some interaction!!  That is not Torah.

So I will make time for you…You do not sound like the NSB I thought I knew!!  Sayang..…………[Tagalog for “what a pity” or “what a waste.”

NSB:  What is “sayang” about refocusing back to YHWH and TNK?

How can FINALLY discovering YHWH and learning to worship Him and no one else  be “sayang”?

Isn’t HE the One True God?

Wouldn’t HE be worth knowing in His self-revelation and action/interaction with Israel as recorded in TNK?

I thought all your teaching was about bringing us back to our Hebraic roots? So now I am taking that route seriously, wholeheartedly, and learning so much more about the Jewish perspective on everything I never knew about and I find I am finally understanding so much more than I ever did from christianity/messianic teaching on the nature of God, sin, atonement, etc.

I have coordinated with BAN to have a meeting at her house first thing Wednesday so we could all talk about our return to our Jewish roots. I will not be joining the noon Bible class with you, I really want my group to give you a hearing because they’ve only heard from me lately.  You will provide the balance. Please encourage them to ask questions about anything they’re not clear about. Filipinos are shy about expressing their disagreement so this gives them total freedom to discuss with you.

M:  No problem…we will see how things develop, with the turmoil in Egypt and other countries setting the stage for pressure on Israel, and then see who is right.

BAN:  Shalom, once again thank you for your input on Gen. 3:15; I do agree with you that messiah and messianic vision is at the heart of the Jewish people, for after all the messianic vision is an original concept at the heart of traditional Judaism, and the dream of an eventual redemption is one of its foundations.

Where we (NSB, VAN, and I, and of course the Jews) digress from you and the Christian world is your interpretation of WHO the messiah is.  You have identified him as Jesus Christ, the son of God, who is God himself made flesh, which is not at all validated by the Tanach, as evidenced by the mistranslations and misinterpretations advocated by believers in Jesus Christ.

We would rather cling to what God says in—-[AST Tanach]

• Exodus 20:2-3 –  I am HASHEM, your God, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence.
• Deuteronomy 4:35 – You have been shown in order to know that HASHEM, He is the God!  There is none beside Him!
• Isaiah 43:10-11 – You are My witnesses —the word of HASHEM —and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before Me nothing was created by a god nor will there be after Me!
• and many other passages as the Tanach is full of God’s affirmation that He alone is God and there is no other.

With regards Genesis 3:15, NSB has adequately declared our stand—we find no messianic prophecy in it at all.  As you have said, you find Jesus in all of Tanach, and yet we do not see that at all.

It all boils down to your faith in Jesus because you believe in the apostolic scriptures; thus, we will neer have a meeting of mind and heart.

We believe only in the One True God as He has revealed Himself in the Tanach.  Let us study His Word with no baggage of Christian theology and see how the Spirit of Adonai will lead us.  Until then, Adonai’s blessings on all of us.  May His Spirit lead us to His truth.

M:  Shalom, I may need to get a Stone Edition of the Tanakh to continue checking on things, but this morning I decided to check out Genesis 3:15.  Both my JPS Tanakh and my Pentateuch & Haftorahs translate as: ….. between your offspring and hers; They shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at their heel. I am bold to pit my elementary Hebrew against them [referring to Jewish translators], because the Hebrew text clearly says “hu” = he, not they, and of course “ata” = you singular.  These false translations are trying to cover up for the prophecy of The Messiah who will be a person, the offspring of the woman, not all of Israel, as they may try to say.

Of course, The Messiah is all through the TNK in addition to the other meshiach persons, like the king and priest.  The question is, Who is This Messiah?  The January issue of Israel Today has a good section on false messiahs of the past, including Schneerson (sp, I have misplaced my copy) of the Chabad Lubavitch.  If you are really going to “Think Jewish,” you will need to Think Messiah, as The Messiah is at the heart of the Jewish people all through time, the heart of the Davidic Covenant, whether certain Jewish scholars want to admit to the Person or push their idea of a messianic age only.

I just want you to be aware that the scholarship of current Jewish anti-missionaries is not fully honest.  Some of their logic is foolish, and the comparisons they make from OT with NT.  They have an agenda and hatred against Messianics in particular, and are getting lots of money for their efforts.  As you know, we are putting our own money into our ministry.

I can find flaws in their writings and arguments just using logic, a fuller context of passages, and my Interlinear Hebrew, plus my JPS Tanakh.  I do not have the Stone version yet.

With world events lurching on toward our Prophecy position, while you ignore the NT, are you going to accept the mark of the beast on your hand or forehead, as it seems the preparation for that is beginning?

I will not bother you 3 much as I have a lot of preparation to do for our next trip to Manila . . . . But if you find a “gem of Truth,” pass it on.  I am not blind to what is going on, nor blind to the history of the Bible texts in ages past, BUT my Trust in YHVH is unshakeable that He will not allow me to be deceived as long as I am completely honest with Him!!   BTW, even in my JPS Tanakh there are TWO YHVH in Genesis 19:24, the Son on earth calling down fire from the Father in heaven.

BAN:  Thank you that you have not given up on us.  I appreciate your concern and your desire to put us ‘in the light.’  These past months have been an intensive time for us (NSB, VAN, and I) studying the Tanach and the apostolic scriptures, and researching all available sources (Jewish, Christian secular, etc.) we could lay our hands on in order to get to the truth of Adonai’s word.  We might not be scholars on your level, but we rely on what God has revealed in His word, coupled with prayer that He shows us His truth and the willingness to be humble to admit our errors if we are wrong in our conclusions.

I have been following the email exchanges between you and NSB.  I see that there would not be a meeting of the mind and heart between us (NSB, VAN and I) since we are coming from a different presupposition.  As NSB has said, we do not accept the canonicity of the apostolic scriptures anymore.  It would be useless for us to ask you to accept our conviction (the Tanach is the sole rule of faith as it is the only revealed word of God) and rejecting the canonicity of NT after having studied and researched on how it came to be written.

My challenge is that we all continue to study and pray to come to know the truth.  Adonai will surely answer this kind of prayer.  He will not respond to both of us affirming our different convictions.  And when He answers, may He give us the grace to accept and to humble ourselves in admitting our erroneous conclusions.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, guide us as we persevere in our walk of faith in Him.

NSB:  Well said, BAN, let’s rest our case! There is no ‘Shalom’ between us anymore even if we keep saying it to each other. God’s TRUTH is really a 2-edge sword, dividing former friends who become serious seekers of the TRUE GOD. As he said, we will “see who is right.”